name: Charles E Carlson
The Pastor and His Son "Why Do We Support Israel?" Part 2
28 November, 2007
Fast-forward 6 years where Pastor Haigen's son is now a freshman in college.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Hey son, your mother and I are so happy to have you home for a while. Would you like to attend the Rally for Israel tonight at our Church?
SON-Ugh, um, I don't think so.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Why not? Do you have plans?
SON-No dad, I don't, but I can't say I am a big supporter of Israel, so I don't think I could contribute any cheers to your rally.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Well, I'm very sorry to hear that. I've always had the fear that college would have a negative effect on you. What are you going to tell me next, that you're now an atheist?
SON-Dad, I haven't stopped believing in Christ. I just don't see the whole Middle East situation the way you do.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Didn't we discuss this when you were younger? Have you forgotten the Christian reasons behind the support for Israel?
SON-I haven't forgotten them. I don't think they ever made sense to me.
PASTOR HAIGEN-How's that?
SON-To start with, I never understood who decides who is a blessed seed of Abraham with land claims and who is not.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Let me try to simplify it. Jews, whether direct blood descendents or converts, carry Abraham's blessing. Nobody else. It's the word of God.
SON-Paul says in Galatians 3:29, "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." But I know you don't believe Christians have a valid land claim in Israel/Palestine.
PASTOR HAIGEN-That's right, only Jews.
SON-But why can't Christians make the same claims?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Because we're not the seed of Abraham in the same way Jews are.
SON-Then why does Paul refer to us as the seed of Abraham? Isn't the book of Galatians the word of God?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Look, we are Abraham's spiritual seed, but not in the way Jews are.
SON-So what you're saying is Jews, even those who deny God's existence, are more Abraham's seed then devout, practicing Christians?
PASTOR HAIGEN-God made a covenant with Israel and swore loyalty to her.
SON-Who is Israel?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Abraham and his descendents.
SON-So who decides who is a descendent of Abraham and who is not?
PASTOR HAIGEN-For the purposes of immigrating to Israel, the Israeli government
SON-But I thought you said they don't require people to document their ancestors thousands of years back to Abraham?
PASTOR HAIGEN-It's up to them to decide who qualifies as a Jew and who does not. If they recognize a person as a Jew, he can immigrate to Israel. If they don't, he cannot.
SON-So your saying that a group of people who claim an exclusive connection to Abraham, without any proof required, are the arbiters deciding who is a descendent of Abraham and who is not?
PASTOR HAIGEN-I guess you can look at it that way, but I don't think it's biblical.
SON-Why? As Christians, Paul says in Galatians 3:29 that we are the seed of Abraham, which we believe to be the word of God, and you say we have no right to the land. And what about the Muslims' claimed connection to Abraham?
PASTOR HAIGEN-As for Muslims, I don't believe in Mohamed, the Koran, or any of their beliefs. Therefore if they claim to be descended from Abraham, I don't believe it so I don't believe they have a right to the land. As for Christians, I can't imagine that God meant hundreds of millions of people when he said he would gather his people from the ends of the earth and bring them back to Israel. Christianity originated in the land of Israel and Palestine, but we never lived there, so it makes no sense that God would gather us together and send us back.
SON-I thought many Jews were converts of European descent. Why would God send them back if they never lived there?
PASTOR HAIGEN-I guess it's because once they converted to Judaism, it's assumed their connection to Abraham is as good as blood. If a conversion is good enough for the Jewish rabbis, it should be good enough for Christians.
SON-So basically, it the rabbis who decide who has a connection to Abraham valid enough to be entitled to the land.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Son, I really do not like your tone. You are coming across as anti-Jewish to me. Don't forget, Jesus Christ, our lord and savior, was a Jew - he was king of the Jews.
SON-What about the Crusaders, were they Christians?
PASTOR HAIGEN-The Crusaders slaughtered many innocents in the name of Christ and called themselves Christians. But certainly they would not be considered Christians by our standards.
SON-Then how do we know that all Jews who call themselves Jews are truly Jews as Abraham and Christ were Jews? Because they go by the same name and CLAIM a legitimate connection? So self described "Jews", who cannot prove to be descendents of Abraham, who deny Christ, and many of which deny the very existence of God, are supposed to be given our full support, both morally and financially, to take by force the land of a people, some of whom are Christians, who CAN prove they have lived in the land of Palestine for centuries?
PASTOR HAIGEN-I see your point. But don't forget God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Are you willing to doubt that Jews are the exclusive descendents of Abraham and risk God's curse?
SON-I don't understand. It sounds like God was speaking directly to Abraham, and giving a warning to those who would bless or curse Abraham, not every potential descendent he may have into perpetuity.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Where do you come up with these interpretations? That IS NOT how this verse is generally interpreted.
SON-So the validity of an interpretation is dependent on how many Christians accept it? Can't the majority be wrong since interpretations of scripture have changed over the centuries?
PASTOR HAIGEN-They can be, but that's why we pray to Jesus Christ to give us wisdom in interpreting the word of God.
SON-Oh.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Do you see now?
SON-Not quite. What does it mean for us to bless the descendents of Abraham?
PASTOR HAIGEN-To give them support: Morally and financially.
SON-Unconditionally?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Well, of course not. We should not support them if they commit acts of evil. But we do have to be careful withholding anything from them, because they are always fighting for their survival. They are surrounded by millions of people who want to see their country destroyed.
SON-But I read that Israel has something like the 4th or 5th strongest military in the world. They have hundreds of nuclear bombs, and weapons that are just about as advanced as that of the U.S. Enemies who want them destroyed may surround them, but their neighbors are hardly able to carry out these wishes even if they wanted to.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Look son, Israel is not perfect, but I truly believe that God has blessed us because of our support for Israel.
SON-How's that dad?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Look at how rich and powerful our country has become.
SON-But Israel wasn't even created until 1948. Decadence, promiscuity, corruption, divorce, and crime have skyrocketed since 1948. I'm not saying this is due to our support of Israel, but I fail to see what blessings have come our way since then.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Although we have our problems, we've been blessed. Most of those problems you've mentioned are a function of our turning our back on Jesus Christ, not due to our support for Israel.
SON-But if your interpretation of scripture is correct, we should be blessed for blessing the seed of Abraham, regardless of our relationship to Christ. God didn't say you must follow my son and bless the seed of Abraham to be blessed. He said, "I will bless those who bless you." I sure can't think of any blessings, unless you consider 9-1-1 a blessing.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Wait a minute. I think 9-11 happened because of our sin. God took his hand of protection off of this nation due to our sin: Sexual deviancy, immorality, and general ungodliness.
SON-But if God wanted to punish us for our sins, he could have caused a massive earthquake or other natural disaster. The fact remains a disaster didn't simply befall our country, it was attacked by Arab Muslims who have a long list of grievances against us, many surrounding our unconditional support for Israel.
PASTOR HAIGEN-So you think God has cursed us for our support for Israel?
SON-I'm not saying I know God's plan regarding 9-1-1. But if our country and the church have been deceived, and our unconditional support for the nation of Israel isn't in accord with God's wishes, 9-1-1 very well could be a message from God. Surely the attack of 9-1-1 has more connection to our policies in the Middle East then our general ungodliness.
PASTOR HAIGEN-Look son, even if you disagree with my theology, don't you think the Jews deserve a homeland because of their horrible suffering in the Holocaust?
SON-First, I don't think they have the right to make a false claim on another people's land due to their own suffering. What about the Armenian genocide that took place in the 1920s at the hands of the Turks? Why don't they get a homeland? And what about Tibet, which has been virtually destroyed by the Chinese? Why don't we support them?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Those things are terrible, but it's not the same. The Holocaust is unique.
SON-Why?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Because Hitler tried to rid the entire continent of Europe of Jews, and the number of Jews killed was in the millions.
SON-Stalin tried to rid the Soviet Union of non-communists. He purposefully starved to death at least 20 million people. Why is that less horrible?
PASTOR HAIGEN-Well, we can't try to right every wrong. But Israel is home to God's chosen people. God promised the land of Israel and Palestine to the Jews.
SON-I give up. I think were back to where we started.
Our Thanksgiving Prayer
21 November, 2007
We Hold These Truths' Advisors thank God for encouraging us through His people. We, like the Pilgrims in 1621, are still here, and we are still able to focus on our dream and purpose.
Many of you, in your way, have been a part of our efforts with your own work and prayers. We are now in our 10th year of organizing exposure of the roots of the Christian-Zionist problem, as we foresaw when we started. Now many see it from various prospective, we are no longer alone, but in many ways we are still in the lead.
We are particularly grateful to those who have answered our call to stand with us at one or more of our now over 60 vigils at churches and organizations that included the Southern Baptist Convention, Promise keepers and John Hagee's "Night to Honor Israel" in four different cities. As our friend Mark, who experienced his first vigil, told me after challenging Hagee's Cornerstone church at our San Antonio vigil, "this is the deep end of the pool." Mark is right, and he and you are brave; it is not easy, but it works because it honors God.
Thanks also to our contributors and especially the sacrificial widow's might friends, who cannot afford it but do it anyway. And thanks to everyone who has bought a book or tape. Our limitations are financing and volunteers. We can do much more.
To me Thanksgiving is America's most honorable custom. In its true context it dates back to 1621 in Plymouth, Massachusetts. Those still alive on that day in November offered grateful thanks to God for the gifts only He could give them. They honored God's promise to love them if they honored him, not just about a free land or a first harvest, but in an eternal peace when life is gone.
I looked at a painting of the earlier Jamestown colony, and I was surprised to see only men in the picture. It was a businessman's colony, a commercial endeavor. But not so with the Pilgrims at Plymouth, they had the courage to bring wives and numerous children on the Mayflower, sailing in the dead of winter. A good number of them were buried at sea. Only 41 (men only) signed the Mayflower Compact just before they left the ship. But don't forget the women were there, and that is why Plymouth is so special!
The issue for the Pilgrims was religious freedom, not commerce. They came to the North American wilderness from Europe, bringing nothing with them but dreams of escaping persecution in their former land.
In their Christian practices they were different from some of us, but basically it was the same faith in Jesus Christ, believing that if they sacrificed life itself it was not the greatest loss, believing that God could be trusted to provide an afterlife better than a frozen and hungry Plymouth existence. Their belief in God's grace is the unique reason they took the risk.
In observing the 1621 Thanksgiving it should be noticed the Pilgrims had very little physically to celebrate. Their first year was a bum crop; they faced six months of winter with not nearly enough to survive. These few appeared have almost nothing to give thanks for, except that they were still alive.
The first feast day was a very humble one, and depended upon the goodwill the settlers had earned from the native Indians because, it seems, they acting in a Christ-like way toward the Indians.
Some who prayed those prayers of thanks did not survive the long winter to follow. They honored God for what little they had, counted on Him to bless their dream of a land where they could raise their children and reckoning that life is God's great gift and life after death is his great promise.
Let us keep that faith and celebrate God's gift of life, and let us show a will to spend that gift in a way that honors him, if need be, as the Pilgrims did.
My best on Thanksgiving,
Chuck Carlson
Polls Sell A U.S. Attack On Iran
14 November, 2007
The campaign to bomb Iran is centered on the Bush Administration's stated desire to do so, supported by the establishment media, the Israeli Lobby, and the voting power of the Christian Right. Public opinion polls are playing a major part in bending Americans to accept, if not endorse, an attack on Iran. Polls are being used, if not designed, to bend opinion toward an attack.
Examples are found in a recent Gallup poll on Iran, paid for by USA Today, and a Zogby Poll on Iran. The press brazenly distorted both telling readers and listeners that the majority of Americans favor a preemptive attack on Iran. Second, Judeo-Christians are the most feverish fans in support of war in the Middle East and an attack on Iran. The Zogby poll identified them as "born again." The Judeo-Christians' cheerleaders call themselves "Christian Zionists". The total number firmly in favor of bombing Iran appears to be about 26%, and is shrinking.
Zogby made a well-publicized interview with Tucker Carlson of MSNBC dated October 31st, in which he allowed himself to be part of an interview that concluded, "A slim majority favor a U.S. attack on Iran." More damaging yet, Zogby also editorialized that the American people seem to be about as much inclined to bomb Iran as they were to hitting Iraq five years ago.
Most polls are commercial business, including Zogby's. A spokesman for Zogby International, Fritz Wenzel, told this writer that a client did not pay for this poll. Zogby made his statement on MSNBC, and concluded that 52% of Americans support bombing Iran. Tucker Carlson responded that he was "stunned" because the vast majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq. Zogby responded to Tucker Carlson's "stunned" disbelief by explaining briefly that the 52% assumed bombing was for the purpose of preventing Iran from gaining nuclear weapons.
The tip-off that Zogby was skewing the results of his own poll is that he failed to recite the exact question asked by the poll of 1,028 persons. The Zogby International Website does not display the actual question asked in the poll.
If you don't know the question what good is the answer?
Zogby's website summarizes the poll: "a majority of likely voters - 52% - would support U. S. Military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon." Choices: (Very supportive, somewhat supportive, not very supportive, not at all supportive, no opinion)
It is no surprise that 26% of Americans would be in favor of bombing Iran because there are about that many Christian Zionists, plus a few Jewish Zionists and Arab Zionists, plus Israel favors bombing. What value is "somewhat supportive" of bombing Iran if and only if it is to prevent nuclear weapons?
Question (7) in the poll was never mentioned by Zogby, but reveals a very strong negative to any bombing even if Iran is found to have nuclear weapons. How convenient is Zogby's language for President Bush, who says he wants to make a "surgical strike" against Iran. The mainline Neo-Con sympathetic press, starting with MSNBC, is shaping Zogby's conclusions to support bombing. It chose this headline: "Most Americans Support Strike."
It is no coincidence that about the same percentage (26%) were "very supportive" of bombing Iran, and by reading Zogby's own poll we can clearly state a slightly greater number outright oppose war, some 28.8%. This Zogby poll confirms what we already know, that Christian Zionists ("born again" in this poll) are the rabid public fans in favor of more devastation in the Middle East.
They are most of the 26% of voters who support bombing Iran. They should naturally choose life, not war. Our best hope is that slumbering mainline churches, and their dormant common sense for self-preservation are already at work awakening them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slim Majority Favor U.S. Attack on Iran to Stop Nuclear Program
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1379
Listen to the John Zogby Interview on Tucker Carlson
http://www.zogby.com/video/view.cfm?id=35
Examples are found in a recent Gallup poll on Iran, paid for by USA Today, and a Zogby Poll on Iran. The press brazenly distorted both telling readers and listeners that the majority of Americans favor a preemptive attack on Iran. Second, Judeo-Christians are the most feverish fans in support of war in the Middle East and an attack on Iran. The Zogby poll identified them as "born again." The Judeo-Christians' cheerleaders call themselves "Christian Zionists". The total number firmly in favor of bombing Iran appears to be about 26%, and is shrinking.
Zogby made a well-publicized interview with Tucker Carlson of MSNBC dated October 31st, in which he allowed himself to be part of an interview that concluded, "A slim majority favor a U.S. attack on Iran." More damaging yet, Zogby also editorialized that the American people seem to be about as much inclined to bomb Iran as they were to hitting Iraq five years ago.
Most polls are commercial business, including Zogby's. A spokesman for Zogby International, Fritz Wenzel, told this writer that a client did not pay for this poll. Zogby made his statement on MSNBC, and concluded that 52% of Americans support bombing Iran. Tucker Carlson responded that he was "stunned" because the vast majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq. Zogby responded to Tucker Carlson's "stunned" disbelief by explaining briefly that the 52% assumed bombing was for the purpose of preventing Iran from gaining nuclear weapons.
The tip-off that Zogby was skewing the results of his own poll is that he failed to recite the exact question asked by the poll of 1,028 persons. The Zogby International Website does not display the actual question asked in the poll.
If you don't know the question what good is the answer?
Zogby's website summarizes the poll: "a majority of likely voters - 52% - would support U. S. Military strike to prevent Iran from building a nuclear weapon." Choices: (Very supportive, somewhat supportive, not very supportive, not at all supportive, no opinion)
It is no surprise that 26% of Americans would be in favor of bombing Iran because there are about that many Christian Zionists, plus a few Jewish Zionists and Arab Zionists, plus Israel favors bombing. What value is "somewhat supportive" of bombing Iran if and only if it is to prevent nuclear weapons?
Question (7) in the poll was never mentioned by Zogby, but reveals a very strong negative to any bombing even if Iran is found to have nuclear weapons. How convenient is Zogby's language for President Bush, who says he wants to make a "surgical strike" against Iran. The mainline Neo-Con sympathetic press, starting with MSNBC, is shaping Zogby's conclusions to support bombing. It chose this headline: "Most Americans Support Strike."
It is no coincidence that about the same percentage (26%) were "very supportive" of bombing Iran, and by reading Zogby's own poll we can clearly state a slightly greater number outright oppose war, some 28.8%. This Zogby poll confirms what we already know, that Christian Zionists ("born again" in this poll) are the rabid public fans in favor of more devastation in the Middle East.
They are most of the 26% of voters who support bombing Iran. They should naturally choose life, not war. Our best hope is that slumbering mainline churches, and their dormant common sense for self-preservation are already at work awakening them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slim Majority Favor U.S. Attack on Iran to Stop Nuclear Program
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1379
Listen to the John Zogby Interview on Tucker Carlson
http://www.zogby.com/video/view.cfm?id=35
Ending Our Plague
12 November, 2007
Americans are sick with an intentionally spread disease far more deadly than anthrax. Our Plague has symptoms: constant wars and the dilution of our wealth are the two most deadly. The mystery of how the plague was spread engendered terror. "Plague" became a uniquely feared word in our language. Fleas that lived on immune rats carried the Plague. When humans got too close to the rats they were bitten by infected fleas and soon died a terrible death, and the rats had more to eat; they were unseen, hiding everywhere. Our plague has two faces and its own special rats.
Someone is methodically stripping our money of its value. We are, it seems, helpless to stop it. Pharisee Watch calls this financial plague "dilution," because someone is causing our hard-saved dollars to be watered down. War goes hand in hand with dilution. The planners of Serial Wars are like child molesters; they never stop; they're always plotting. Plague-makers repeat their war crimes as long as the public does not revolt over the killings. War is a business they cannot allow to stop. Serial wars are perpetual paydays for them.
Serial Wars also steal the minds of our children, numbing them to killing, a generation at a time. Wars are teaching them that life is cheap. Military camera footage caught on open ground in the dark the appalling sights and sounds of two young Americans who had received permission to execute three Iraqi men. The callous dialog of the two young Americans, with their sights locking onto the infrared images of humans, should chill your blood.
It feeds the drug importers and porn industry, collapses sexual morality, fuels the abortion mills and crack houses; job problems and anger are anti-family symptoms of the Plague. To pay for their wars, the Plague-makers print money and pay it to their allies. To hide rising prices (caused by diluted money) they sign treaties that lower labor costs, forcing emigration of stable jobs.
The war promoters also deliberately discourage industry at home with regulations that don't apply abroad. The lower priced, cheap-labor stuff we buy provides the illusion that we are not sick. The service economy is vulnerable, unstable. The illusion that the Plague does not exist is the cruelest part of the hoax. In order to further hide the cause of the disease, the Plague-makers have purchased control of virtually the entire media.
Newspapers, TV and talk radio, most of Hollywood and both political parties. All of these openly campaign to justify more serial war. The Plague makers chose to make China an ally, and Islam was elected as the war target. In 1992, the Plague-makers published and obscure map, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) World Peacekeeping Map, and on it was the locations of future wars, even Bosnia. Your writer bought the map; it called for war on Islamic states.
Someone is methodically stripping our money of its value. We are, it seems, helpless to stop it. Pharisee Watch calls this financial plague "dilution," because someone is causing our hard-saved dollars to be watered down. War goes hand in hand with dilution. The planners of Serial Wars are like child molesters; they never stop; they're always plotting. Plague-makers repeat their war crimes as long as the public does not revolt over the killings. War is a business they cannot allow to stop. Serial wars are perpetual paydays for them.
Serial Wars also steal the minds of our children, numbing them to killing, a generation at a time. Wars are teaching them that life is cheap. Military camera footage caught on open ground in the dark the appalling sights and sounds of two young Americans who had received permission to execute three Iraqi men. The callous dialog of the two young Americans, with their sights locking onto the infrared images of humans, should chill your blood.
It feeds the drug importers and porn industry, collapses sexual morality, fuels the abortion mills and crack houses; job problems and anger are anti-family symptoms of the Plague. To pay for their wars, the Plague-makers print money and pay it to their allies. To hide rising prices (caused by diluted money) they sign treaties that lower labor costs, forcing emigration of stable jobs.
The war promoters also deliberately discourage industry at home with regulations that don't apply abroad. The lower priced, cheap-labor stuff we buy provides the illusion that we are not sick. The service economy is vulnerable, unstable. The illusion that the Plague does not exist is the cruelest part of the hoax. In order to further hide the cause of the disease, the Plague-makers have purchased control of virtually the entire media.
Newspapers, TV and talk radio, most of Hollywood and both political parties. All of these openly campaign to justify more serial war. The Plague makers chose to make China an ally, and Islam was elected as the war target. In 1992, the Plague-makers published and obscure map, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) World Peacekeeping Map, and on it was the locations of future wars, even Bosnia. Your writer bought the map; it called for war on Islamic states.
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