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An Extreme case of Acrophobia

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The Jews promised land.

acrophobia | 10 November, 2005 07:52

I wanted to reply to a comment I got but I thought this would become long and so I wanted to make it a whole post.

The comment goes as:

Zionist?

So, are authentic Muslims then Zionists (acc. to the above definition: who believe in a covenant giving Jews the land of Israel)?

Qur’ân V. 20-21:
And [remember] when Moses said to his people: "O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

Qur’ân XVII. 104:
And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: "Dwell securely in the Promised Land." And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.

Ashley David | 09/11/2005, 12:13

Dear Ashley, you cited two verses from the Quran so lets take them one at a time.

Qur’ân V. 20-21: [this is chapter "Al-Ma'eda"]
And [remember] when Moses said to his people: "O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

But here you failed to mention the verses which follow:

Qur’ân V. 20-21:
"They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter. (But) among (their) Allah-fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith. They said: "O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch). He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"

I believe its very clear.

Qur’ân XVII. 104: [this is chapter "Al-Isra'"]
And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: "Dwell securely in the Promised Land." And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.

First, I have no idea where you got the 'Promised Land' part, in arabic it is written as 'Al-Ard' which literally means 'The Land' and defining 'The Land' does not necessarily add the 'promised' part, it all becomes clear if we read the verse just before this one.

Qur’ân XVII. 103:
"So he [Pharao] resolved to remove them from the face of the land: but We did drown him and all who were with him."

now lets rewrite the verse you cited

Qur’ân XVII. 104:
And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: "Dwell securely in the Land." And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.

Thank you for a really interesting point of view, for a minute there I almost believed you *wink*

Religions :: Comment (5) :: Permalink

[Reply]

The Promised Land

Cheers to you, acrophobia! Now this is some serious religious dialogue - and so far very logical and well-thought out. Respectful it is, as always it should be.

I'll add my two cents at another time when I actually have more of it (time, that is).

I'm impressed with your lack of anger. And I like your open-mindedness and the humor of the last sentence in your reply. Bravo :-)

Holly | 10/11/2005, 22:45

[Reply]

Thanks Holly :D, it would be nice to read the opinion of a christian regarding this matter, although we might both know where the right wing christians stands, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Still waiting for ashley though.

acrophobia | 11/11/2005, 02:43

[Reply]

Promised Land

First let me say two things: One, I am not so fond of 'organized religion, per se, simply because it, like history itself, is NOW used in service of the present and therefore its interpretation has been skewed (in all of the three great, monotheistic religions of the world); and two, Islam is truly one of the most peaceful religions I've come to know. The Qu'ran is very explicit (more so in Arabic than English, but my Arabic is weak as far as reading the Qu'ran, and so I revert to English text translation of it, which kind of makes it not really the true or literal word. My observations are based on that premise...)

I've always looked at the three great religions - Hebrew, Christain, and Muslim as extenstions of the one before it - kind of like God giving mankind three chances, and although struggling, each people has failed spectacularly in recieving and accepting the true meaning of faith.

Having said that, the word (term, categorization, etc.) of 'Zionism' is to me nothing more than a politically created term to further selfish goals and/or to give (unsubstantiated proof)for people to take that which wasn't theirs to begin with. 'Zionists' , for the most part, are of Eastern European descent and therefore any claim to 'el ard' in Palestine is baseless. I also believe that the (original) 'People' with whom God had made a covenant were local peoples from the area - sharing bloodlines with their pagan (at the time) brethren.

Since 11 of the 12 tribes of Israel (I say tribe very specifically here) were 'lost' (according to history), the one that remained could only have mixed with indigenous peoples of the area. The same goes for the others.

The idea of European Jews laying claim to a land that was continually inhabited by what even the Christain Bible (historically) called Palestine, given to them by yet a third party through the United Nations, and thereby displacing millions of indigenous peoples, just doesn't make sense logically.

Indeed, a tragedy occurred in Eastern Europe with the advent of Hitler - my polish (Christain) ancestors suffered at his hands, as well... But from Eastern Europe to the Levant several thousand years later and mixed bloodlines generations later, again doesn't make sense. None of them had any land deeds; none of them had any ties to the land of Palestine; there is no written (historically found writings) to substantiate such claims. The Old Testament itself wasn't even written down until some 1,200 later than its supposed beginning (I may be wrong on that number, but I believe it's accurate), in which time stories were expanded, created, and spread only by word of mouth. How accurate can oral legends be over a time period of 1200 years or more? I would certainly question its validity and accuracy.

There are several problems at the root of the creation of the state of Israel and her success as a sovereign nation with U.S. help and support. One being that the West doesn't come even remotely close to understanding eastern thought and culture - and the language, even when interpreted, or perhaps especially when interpreted, does not reflect in any way, a western mode of speech or thought. The Jews of Israel predominantly came from Europe (or America via Europe), and Americans are European in origin anyway - that gives common ground and mutual understanding - language, culture, etc. The Arabs, with their Semitic language(s) and separate culture borne from civilizations come and gone over thousands of years really are worlds apart in both distance and identity. That has made for one, difficulty in mutual understanding, and two, extremists that the west cannot possibly comprehend.

One major difference: Westerners have not only a greed for life, they have a fear of death. Easterners, and Muslims more specifically, are ingrained with the fact that we are born to die, that life on earth is short and what's important comes afterwards, nearly from birth. These two outlooks are as different as night and day.

In the end, the "Promised Land' is yes, el ard, or The Land, which a tribe of religious followers failed in their Covenant with the One God - and history shows us that - it has nothing to do with anything I might say. For thousands of years, Semitic peoples have lived on that land, came from that land, and not left from that land. Where Eastern Europeans came from, well, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

I wonder... if I were to convert to Judaism tomorrow, would I be able to claim a piece of property in Israel?

;-) 'wink'

Holly | 11/11/2005, 22:57

jews land [Reply]

since england made sure the state of israel was established when it had never existed until "they" made sure it existed, i think then, england should be the country to give to the jews continually, over and over, and over again. then, maybe, they will keep their whineing stopped and the rest of the world can live in peace, or try, and the earth will NOT be forced into a jew war, or rather the war of the "mark," the MARK of CAIN...

margaret | 25/11/2005, 16:36

Palistine [Reply]

In sha allah if the Palistinian Muslims return or turn to the pureness of their religion, Alaah will free them from the punishment that they are receiving. In the Qu'aan Allah says what means "Whatever of good reaches you is from Allah,but whatever of evil befalls is from yourself" An-Nisa 79. Specific and also general!!!!

abu jubair | 01/12/2005, 08:58

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